110. After The Affair with Luke Shillings
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NOTE: Following transcript is not edited.
110 Luke ShillingsHello, everyone, and welcome back to the podcast. I am very excited today because I have a special guest with me, and we are going to talk about relationships and healing from infidelity and co parenting. After infidelity as well. I know there's lots of folks that listen to this podcast who are somewhere in their divorce process.
You might be thinking about divorce. You might be, um, at any stage of it, or maybe it's behind you and you're still co parenting with someone. Maybe infidelity was part of. Your history. And so we're going to talk about how do we move past that? And I am bringing on an excellent, excellent coach who can help us talk all about that.
This is Luke Shillings, and he's coming to us from the UK. He stayed up late to be able to talk to us. Thanks for coming on, Luke. Thank you for having me, Meg. It's an absolute pleasure. Yeah, and Luke and I share, um, a bunch of different stuff. One thing is that we both went through the same coaching school, so I bet you all will pick up some of the same terminology.
Um, I bet Luke likes to talk about thoughts and feelings just about as much as I like to talk about thoughts and feelings. So, that's That's all welcome here. Um, let me tell you just a little bit about Luke. Luke is a father of two. He's a runner. He's a problem solver. He has his own podcast, which is called After the Affair, which I highly, highly recommend if infidelity has been part of your history.
Or experience, um, he's got so much wisdom that he shares on there And he's a business owner and a relationship and infidelity coach Luke, will you tell us a little bit about how you got started doing this work? And what what draws you to to helping folks heal from infidelity? Yeah, of course Well again, thank you for for having me on.
Um, so I suppose with With many stories like this, it begins with your own personal story. You go through something yourself, and it affects you in a very significant way. It's something that you didn't expect, and you work your way through that, through whatever methods means that you have available to you at the time.
And as you do that, you pick up tricks and tips and techniques, and you try things out, and you work stuff out, and eventually you get to a place where you want to do something with that over and above just having, you know, been through that experience and gained that knowledge and kept it to yourself.
So I'd been married for eight years and I was happily married. I had two children, two young children, and my wife had an affair with one of our friends, one of our sort of quite close friends. Ultimately, this ended up in us separating and then divorcing. I'd wanted to try, I'd wanted to stay in the marriage, and I didn't really want to walk away from it, despite the betrayal that had happened, but there were conditions in place, in the sense that it had to be because we both wanted to be in the relationship, it couldn't just be because of the kids, or because of money, or logistics, or finances, or any of those other things.
So, um, yeah. you know, superficial things. It had to be because we both wanted it and ultimately that decision wasn't able to be made on, on her part. So we did decide to separate and divorce, which of course that threw me very quickly into a very different set of circumstances. I no longer lived in the family home.
I was the one that moved out and we were in this new co parenting. situation with the affair partner still in the relationship with my ex wife as we were going through a divorce. It was a very challenging time. I felt like I knew what the next five to ten years looked like, at least to some extent, whilst I'd been, you know, being married.
And I loved being married. And then all of a sudden I found myself in this place where I didn't know what tomorrow looked like. I didn't know what the next week looked like. And of course I felt a lot, you know, so it's very appropriate that we do talk about Feelings, and I think even more so for, for men as well, because, you know, many people are brought up, many men are brought up with that sort of, probably nowadays, outdated, old fashioned idea that we should suppress them and man up and grow up.
And this is arguably the same for, for all genders, of course, but certainly there's a, there's a notable impact about burying your emotions and just getting on with it and just getting over it. Um, that, that I noticed certainly from. I had quite a good support network but I still had those sort of like underlying messages that I'd grown up with.
I think as well, you, you, you come into something like this already, always having an idea of how you think you'd handle the situation. And I think there's so many situations in life that this applies to, you know, where you think you know what you would do in that situation. It's a bit like, how would you respond if you came across a car accident?
You think you know that you would do the right thing, but Actually, until you're in that moment, you've got no idea how you're going to respond. I thought that I'd be, you know, if somebody betrayed me, it's like, right, that's it, you're out the door, you know, done, dusted. But that's definitely not what I felt.
That's definitely not how I felt at all. I still felt a deep sense of love. I still felt a decent sense of connection. We were still very good friends. It was, I didn't want. that outcome at that point in time. However, it was without my, outside of my control. You know, there was nothing I could do. So that is what we ended up doing.
During that healing process, I went through a few stages of my own. Um, but ultimately I was in a position where I wanted to try and figure out what it was I wanted to do with the rest of my life. You know, I, I, I, like I say, I thought I knew what it looked like and now I didn't. Initially that was terrifying because there was, I just didn't know where to look, but then I started to see it from a very different perspective and started to recognize that actually this was like a blank canvas.
I could essentially paint and curate whatever I wanted in, in a way that maybe I actually couldn't have done quite so easily whilst still in a primary relationship like a, like a marriage. So it actually offered a lot of opportunities that I didn't have beforehand in some ways. I really spent a lot of time focusing on that co parenting element, being really consistent and really showing up and really understanding like what it meant to be a father.
And of course I already was a father, it's not like that role actually changed, but the emphasis changed, the spotlight shifted somewhat, and it created a new dynamic. But ultimately I ended up going down the path, uh, discovered coaching almost by mistake, if you like. And a lot of that resonated with me.
The, the thoughts create feelings and everything that we talk about in the self coaching model that I'm sure Meg will have spoken about at least on some level in the podcast that. It just was like this framework that helped me clarify and understand, particularly for someone like me, who's very logical in my thinking, always likes to control the outcome, which apparently we can't do, which is a little bit frustrating.
But, you know, recognizing that, but giving such a, a useful tool to be able to really look at the world from a very different perspective. And of course, when I apply that to everything I went through in terms of betrayal and everything that I've learned since, it complements it perfectly. And so that's what I've been doing for the last two or three years.
Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of that and giving us those insights when you, when you said it was very challenging. All I could think is like challenging doesn't. Encompass, right? It's like not, we don't have a good enough word in the English language for what that is. Um, I actually recently spoke, um, I'm not, I'm not sure how many episodes this will be back, but I talked about this concept, um, that Bruce Filer, who's an author and, um, researcher, um, Kind of coined which is life quakes, right?
Some way you're going I've not I've not heard it before but but it lands right it's like it's it's such a big Such a big change to our life that it has us in really questioning a lot of pieces of our identity. It has us, um, questioning our future
and just really rethinking what our priorities are and what we want to do with our life. It, it kind of like, somebody once described divorce this way, um, That it's like you're at a picnic and you have everything spread out on the picnic blanket and then somebody just like throws the blanket up in the air, right?
And everything lands somewhere. Some on the blanket, some not, some is broken. It's all a mess, right? Like, that's kind of what it feels like. And, um, I think that term lifequake kind I love that. It really does. It does. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's hard to, like you say, it's hard to put into words exactly what that feels like.
And it is different for everybody. Of course, everybody has their, their own subjective experience based on all All manner of things, and there are no two situations the same, and I think that same goes for the healing journey itself. There is no, I think I did an episode a while back literally called, you know, The Right Way to Heal, of which there is no right way to heal.
You know, it is really looking at your individual situation, circumstances, understanding who you are, like Meg just said, really sort of redefining or trying to figure out who you are, particularly after you've come, the betrayal is one thing. But if you then go through divorce, your entire identity has changed.
You no longer are the person, or at least you don't see yourself as the same person that you were. That, that was actually probably the biggest thing that I grieved, in all honesty, was that, that identity of family man, father, you know, homeowner. Just, there's just everything that came with that. There was a lot of pride in that for me.
And I loved being married, and I loved my wife, and the whole thing. So. Having that, like the rug being pulled from underneath your feet is, is, is kind of what it felt like. There's a complete loss of control. At least that was the perception from a circumstantial basis. Of course, we always have way more control than we probably realize.
Because ultimately it's just about how it feels. Yeah, yeah, well going back to what you were kind of talking about too about individual healing journeys And and I want to ask you some questions about your healing journey to me one of the key Steps along that path and maybe it's I don't know. Do you have chutes and ladders in the UK?
Or do you call it something? What's what's the game? Snake snakes and we call it snakes and ladders snakes and ladders. Okay, so Right. I, I often think about when we're going through divorce or separation or any sort of big, big thing in our life, right, that nobody's going to go along at the same way, but we, we probably will hit on a lot of the same squares, if you will.
Right. So, so the path isn't the same, but there's like a good chance that we're all going to land on square number 10 or what, you know, whatever it is. Where that many of us, well, and so I'm, I'm curious. Oh, so where I was going with that. It was that I think that
that realization of feeling like I'm, I don't have control that all of this is happening outside of my control. And then kind of like coming back to this place where we start to see everything that is in our control. That's a special square on. On the board on the game board, right? That it's like, okay, actually, this thing is in my control.
And actually, this thing is in my control. Yes, there are, there's this other person, there's other people, they're going to make decisions that are outside of my control. But I actually have more power, more agency in my life than I, than I think in this moment. And I think that that's such a, it's such a key piece of the healing process.
I, I love the analogy with the, the, I say the, he say shoots and letters in, we say shoots and letters. Shoots and letters. We can do do snakes and letters too. Yes. Um, uh, because that, that bottom row, that first row, well, we all traverse that row. Yeah, we might, like I say, we might not all land on square two or square six or square seven, but we'll all go across, across to that first one to ten.
And it's only once you get up into the second row, when you've then in a position where you could potentially fall back down, you know, but we all have to go across where we want. And you're right. There are those certain steps and stages that we do all go through. And I think you also touched on that.
Really, what we're trying to do is we're trying to gain clarity. We're getting to a position where we can, although the circumstances might be out of our control, they always were, you know, that's such an important thing to recognize. They've never been in our control. And it's not in the way that we perceive them.
It's only the narrative and the story that we tell ourselves that makes it feel like it's in control. And I think this is true for, I mean, I use this as a tool to help people really get clarity when they are going through betrayal, and that is, you know, really separating the things that we can control versus from the things that we cannot control.
It's something that you and I would be both familiar of in terms of facts versus stories. You know, we're trying to really pop those two things into two separate columns. Because one, we can then say, okay, well, at least I can understand. I can see it. It's clear. This is the thing that's happened. It's outside of my control.
I will pop that over here. It may change. And there may even be some things that I can change on it, but that's not my priority. My priority right now is this other pot, and it's actually a lot bigger. This other big list of things that is all of the things that I'm making this mean. All the things that I'm making it mean about me.
Wasn't I good enough? You know, what did I do wrong? Why didn't I see it? Am I not cut out to be a wife or a husband? You know, all of these things. Why did we you know, conflict, get into conflict so regularly. What was it that led to this? You know, all of these questions that we start to, to make that, those circumstances, if you like, those facts mean about us as individuals.
But actually that idea of separating those things from, that you control from the ones that you can't, is the same across every area of our life, regardless of the, the level of. Subjective discomfort that it brings the, the pain, the emotional trauma that it can, um, cause for some people, you know, it's, it's, it's an extremely important, important process to go through and it really is probably the, the first turning point in terms of actually being able to start to climb those ladders.
Yeah, yeah, start, start turning to the healing. Right. There's kind of that moment of,
there's that moment of, um, just reaction. Right. And when I say moment, I mean, we're talking is it days, is it weeks, is it months, whatever, where we're just reacting to what has happened. We're trying to find some solid ground to stand on. Right. And then there comes a point where we start shifting into the healing and we start shifting into this forward focusing time.
And I'm curious if, if there's some similarities that you see in the folks that you work with or from your own personal experience about. So when we start shifting to the healing and we start shifting to focusing forward, what are some of the steps or the stages that. That folks go through. Yeah, well I think, I think that for the first one that we've spoken about or begin to speak about is that it's that shock and disbelief.
It's that how could this happen? It's overwhelming. You probably spend the first couple of weeks not eating properly, not looking after yourself, not sleeping very well. Everything's very, very just, just tumultuous and there's complete and utter turmoil. It's quite, it can be quite a frightening time because you just don't feel like you've got.
Any stability whatsoever, but that does subside even just just naturally that extreme shock and disbelief does subside to begin with and then it starts to To see and that's also a very reactive stage as well. Like you said that can also be where there's There's lots of anger. There's lots of bitterness resentment frustration, you know, and annoyance and all of those kinds of emotions that usually lead to Quite, you know, or they can do at least to behaviours that we often end up regretting, you know, either, either loss of shouting or slamming doors or saying things that we don't really mean or, you know, all of these kinds of things or sending that passive aggressive text message or email or immediately filing for divorce, you know, like without really thinking anything through just making these rash decisions based on that, like really intense, emotional, you know, response that we're having.
And of course we're completely emotionally dysregulated at that point. So, you know, one real good bit of advice is when you are feeling in that state, don't make any decisions, you know, just, just look after yourself. That's really just buy yourself some time because almost always, in fact, I'm going to say always.
If you lead from a place of unwanted emotion, whether that be, you know, anger, sadness, resentment, disappointment, frustration, betrayal, guilt, any of these, shame, any of these types of emotions, it never leads where you want it to go. It always takes you a step backwards. So we have that initial, like, explosion to begin with, and then, then things start to slow down.
They go deeper, they go darker, and we move into that stage of grief. And, you know, we're familiar with grief on many different levels, whether it be the loss of a family member, the loss of a partner, the loss of a job, the loss of an identity, that there's many different things that we can grieve in life and this is no different.
And that's also a time where really it's about being really kind to yourself. You know, really treating yourself like somebody you really care about. Then maybe once we can start to shift towards acceptance, understanding, trying to really get a bit of a grip on this is, this is where the, the facts and the stories really start to play a, an important part in the process.
Get an understanding of what your new situation is, what are your new circumstances, and and how do you want to move forward, and can you start to maybe understand why? Your relationship has come to an end. Why are you in a position where you're now getting divorced or you've been betrayed or whatever the individual circumstances are, and start to get clear on those.
That then opens the door for the next step of sort of really starting to rebuild. Now rebuild doesn't necessarily mean with your X partner. And of course, based on many of the people listening to the podcast, we're in co parenting. So by definition, the, the X partner is X, you know, that has already happened.
So rebuilding doesn't necessarily mean rebuilding that romantic relationship, but it might mean rebuilding A relationship, particularly if there are children involved, and we're trying to rebuild that connection. There's still some dynamic that's going to exist because the reality is once you've had children with another human being, you are tied to that other human being for the rest of your life in some way, shape, or form.
Now, you could be the kind of person that just jumps in the car and drives off and never has contact with your children again. Not the highest quality of human being, if you don't mind me saying. And you're probably, you're probably not listening to this podcast. No, no. I think we could all probably agree on that.
Um, so, or, or you're, you're, you're wanting to try and, you know, you're putting your kids as at least a focal point to begin with. That's a, that's a common thing that many people do. It's like, yeah, well, I know, prioritize the kids. That was the message I got, particularly, you know, focus on the kids and everything will be okay.
Focus on the kids, you know, that was like, Of course that comes from a really good place, and we love our children, and I love my children, and they are extremely important, but honestly The most significant shift in my journey was when I recognized that I was the most important person. Because the second, honestly Meg, the second I really, I truly, really understood that, I became the best version of myself, and my children got the best version of me.
There was no harboring resentment, there was no, there was no dependency on anything anymore. It was all about Just me being me, and them getting me, like truly. Um, so that was, that was really a beautiful thing. In lots of ways, the, the fact that I didn't live with the kids anymore, in a way, actually improved my relationship with the children, because it meant the time I was spending with them was so intentional.
You know, it wasn't just that day to day mundane routine, ships in the night, ships passing in the night with your, with your co partner, with your, you know, with your partner, uh, the other parent, and it completely changed that dynamic, which I think was really, really, really quite nice, actually, to recognize.
I didn't spot it to begin with, but. Once I started to settle in, it was really, really profound. And of course, when we start looking at rebuilding, then we can't really do that without at least stumbling across the word of forgiveness, which can be very difficult for many people. And forgiveness is a complex topic, and it's often got lots of misconceptions, in terms of it means letting people off the hook, or letting them get away with it, or letting go, or forgetting, or getting over it, and it's like, it's got nothing to do with that.
Forgiveness is just about the burden that you carry. It's just about the heavy sack of weight that you're carrying over your shoulder that you're dragging along with you. It's that climbing up the stairs and just, just lugging this way and just finding it so, so difficult. And it's affecting everything.
It's affecting how you're showing up every day. It's affecting how you're reacting, responding to the, to your children's other parent. affecting your relationship with your children. And the reality is you're the only person hanging onto that sack of heavy weight, you know, and that might be hard to grasp initially, working through forgiveness, forgiving yourself, you know, for, for the things that you maybe feel responsible for that you, you know, we spoke about earlier, those things where you think, well, wasn't I good enough?
What did I do wrong? How did I not see the things, you know, How can you start to release that burden? So yeah, I think that's sort of like the main steps. And I think that's fairly consistent, whether it be through just divorce or betrayal or, you know, other similar situations. Yeah. Well, and the other thing that comes up for me is just how there might not even be infidelity, like that might not even be part of your story, but there could have been something that then triggered that.
extreme shock and disbelief, right? Like some something happened that ruptured the relationship. And then you still have these same phases or stages that you people don't come out of Yeah, people don't come out of a marriage Both happy like oh, yeah, I know. So let's just get divorced today. All right.
Cheers. Great day. Let's go, you know That's just not how it works. There's always something That's led up to it. And it's often very painful for both people. And sometimes it can be even more painful for one person, particularly if the other person is the one that's kind of instigating the separation.
Maybe they have disconnected and they've grown apart or whatever it is. And of course there's many situations, many circumstances. Right. But even if you're in a relationship where actually the relationship wasn't healthy, you know, and there are other things going on. Maybe it's even been an abusive relationship on some level.
And you've now got yourself in a position, again, forgiveness is still something that you both, it's a gift that you can give yourself, both in terms of forgiving yourself for being in a relationship where maybe you put up with a certain level of treatment, let's say over a period of time, but also even potentially opening the door to the possibility that even the person that did do you harm, that did hurt you in some way, They're also a human being that started out life as a little baby, and they had lots of life experiences, there's lots of genetics, there's lots of things that they learned, there's things that if, I remember hearing this thing once, where If you, or if I, was swapped, like, cell for cell, for even someone as, like, Hitler, for example, you know, somebody as extreme as that, if I was cell for cell the same as he was, and I'd experienced the same things, I had the same genetics, I had the same education, all of those things, I would have made the same decisions as him.
We're all human and although sometimes we see this end result, it's a bit because another good example is when we look at people who are super successful or we perceive as super successful. It's the tip of the iceberg effect where you only see the success. You don't see all of the hard work that came before it Well in the case of somebody who does something unpleasant You only see the terrible act You don't see everything that built up to make that person be the kind of person that thought that that was the most appropriate form of action Human beings are complicated Sure are Yeah, that's so true, okay, I have a question when when I think about forgiveness and When you talked about forgiving yourself for past actions or behaviors, you know, I, I talk with my clients a lot about that.
We, we look back on the version of us that did that thing. And we talk about how, given the information that she had given, given the emotional health that she had given her physical health, given her, you know, um, Um, her ecosystem of support around her, given, given what she knew, given her knowledge, I totally understand why she did what she did, given her sleep, right?
Like, whatever it was, like, I totally understand what she did. And we just like, send her lots of love, you know, like, of course, that makes sense why you made that decision. There's an element in that. When it feels like forgiveness, there's an element of love in my mind that goes back to this older version of us.
When I think about forgiving my ex or, you know, somebody else who has done harm, and it feels very hard to generate that sense of love in the same way. Right. And so what I, I'm curious about is like, I feel a lot of acceptance towards like understanding exactly what happened, understanding why they probably did it, but I would never say that I got into that place of pure forgiveness because, because there isn't kind of like an underlying understanding.
love element there or compassion. And I'm curious, like your thoughts on that. Yeah, sure. So I suppose in that situation, it's, it's a question of what is not forgiving or how is not forgiving that person impacting
what are the, what are the consequences of. Not forgiving.
Now, if you are still having, because really, when we think about these things, it comes down to our quality of thinking. If we think, if we think high quality thoughts, we tend to act in a high quality way, which creates a world and experience results that are perfectly aligned with who we want to be and our core values.
Now. Again, it's this, this, this tipping point between what forgiveness really means, because forgiveness isn't forgetting, isn't just getting over it, it isn't condoning, it isn't, you know, Thinking, yeah, that's a great idea. You know, go and do it again. Do what you want. It's none of that. It's none of that.
It's, it's about releasing the emotional tie that it has on you and whether that affects you in any way. And sometimes you might think, oh, well, you know, it's not really affecting me that much. You know, it doesn't really, doesn't really bother me. Until you're in a situation where maybe, for example, there's some social event where the likelihood that you are going to be at maybe a kid's graduation or something, or some event where your ex partner is going to be there, and maybe they're even going to be there with their new partner, and there's going to be some resistance, and that resistance is coming from that fact that you have not a partner.
chosen to release yourself of that, because you're the only person it's affecting. If you choose to forgive the other person, they actually don't care or know, and they don't need to, because it's not about them, and it's not for them, it's for you. And if you had a choice of feeling, so let's think about, if we're not forgiving, what are we feeling?
Are we feeling, We're feeling anger, we're feeling disappointment, we're feeling frustration, we're feeling betrayed. Maybe we're feeling a little bit of shame because we've allowed that person to betray us in some way. None of those are pleasant feelings, you know. If we pop them into the feeling line of the, of the model, they don't create things that lead us to a place of positive or intent or want or anything on purpose.
So if we have a choice of choosing an emotion, let's say, if we wanted to choose to feel unconditional love for somebody. That doesn't mean that we have to spend time with them. It doesn't mean that we have to say nice things or do nice things or send them birthday cards or, or anything. We don't have to do any of those things.
But we get to feel something better. We get to feel something different. I see the affair partner from my situation several times a week. He lives very close to where my ex wife lives and of course I spend a lot of time there. And the feelings That I could have for him and did have for him at one point were not healthy, you know, they felt very natural and right and real and raw and, and I wanted to do harm.
And maybe initially the kids did play, did play a role in me not doing that because I didn't like the idea of, you know. Speaking to them from a, on a phone from jail, you know, so I chose not to take that path. But what I noticed was that as time went by and every time I saw him, how I felt changed. And I actually used it quite as quite a solid reference point as like to see where I was in my journey.
Because I could often think, oh yeah, well I'm okay with this, I'm okay with that. And then you're exposed to it and it's like, oh, maybe I'm not. Or actually, maybe I'm doing a bit better than I thought I was. And eventually got to a point where it's like, this guy's just another human being. Mm hmm. He's made some poor decisions that have had an impact on me.
And that's true. You know, we could argue that that is a circumstantial thing that has happened. But I've got a choice. I can feel hate and anger resentment, which is tight. It's unpleasant. I don't like it. Even if I was to see him and I had the kids in the car, my demeanor would change. If I felt anger. If I felt frustration.
Whereas if I don't feel those things. I don't want to get out and give him a hug, of course not, but I can still like understand and accept and, and feel calm and pleasant feelings. And it's just, it's just okay. It's just okay. It doesn't hurt. And it's because I have nothing, there's nothing left of, there's no, there's nothing resentment related tied in there anymore.
And that's because I really did gift myself forgiveness. And I recognize how challenging that can be. I've been down that path. I know what it's, I do know what it feels like. Honestly, it's, well certainly for me at least, and certainly for many of the people that I work with, it's such a powerful shift in being able to release that weight.
It's almost like when you make that decision, because that's what it is, is a decision, it's a choice, a choice to forgive, you feel lighter, like instantly. Yeah. Instantly. Well, instantly. Yeah, that, that resonates with me. And in the process, I feel like the healing process is nonlinear in, in many ways. Right.
And, um, I, I have many points along my journey where there was kind of this lightning bolt moment where I was just like, oh, I've, I've done enough processing or I've done enough thought work or I've done enough exploring my emotions that something just released and then in that second, like, boom. Okay. Oh, it's gone.
Okay. Good. But I couldn't have seen that coming. Like, I, um, I remember one point I was on a walk with a friend and Yeah. And I had a realization around trust, right? And forgiveness and trust and acceptance are all kind of intertwined in so many different ways. But I realized before I could begin to trust my, my co parent, my ex in the same way, and I didn't even know if I would ever get back to totally the same way, I realized, well, what's key is that I just trust myself implicitly.
That I can handle. any situation that comes up. So no matter what he does, I'm going to be able to figure it out. And that level, like that deep self trust that just like landed, like I can, I can picture the tree I was walking by, like I was not doing thought work at that moment, but having done so much coaching and having worked on this stuff, it was like, Oh, and it landed like just in that moment.
I think that's wonderful. And there's an analogy that I'll sometimes allude to this idea of being, imagine you're rock climbing and you're For most people that's quite a scary thing, you know, unless you're a professional rock climber. You know, you're stood at the, at the face of the cliff, if you like, and you, what do you do?
The first thing you do is you have a quick look up and you try and assess and maybe you look at a path that maybe you Either you've tried before and it was too hard, or maybe you fell and hurt yourself. That's a bit like the, the betrayal, the hurt, the harm, that's the, how can we learn? Well, we don't take that same path again.
We try something a little bit different. And maybe we start initially by just sort of putting our hands on the wall and having a bit of a feel around. And then we, we lift one foot up and get our first foothold. And then we lean into it a little bit and we apply a little bit of pressure. We've still got our other foot on the ground, left foot still on the ground.
And we still feel that little bit safe. We're just sort of just. Just leaning in carefully, then we go, okay, then we lift the foot off the ground. And then one step by step, we gradually reach and move our hands and our feet up the wall. But the difference is, as we're climbing up the wall, we also have this other special tool.
We've got one of these little clips, and these clips we can plug into the little crevice in the wall, which is attached to a rope, and as we go higher we keep plugging these into the wall. So we know that if for any reason we slip, we make a mistake and we fall, or the wall itself gives way, or the, you know, the foothold gives way, we have our own backs because we've got this safety net, if you like, in terms of the rope coming up the wall.
Now, when we're thinking about like rebuilding trust in other people, we can still do the same basic thing. So we start by prodding around. We test little things. We don't give the full trust all in one go. We just. Try little bits. Yeah, and we start to build on that and then we also have our own safety net But unlike the rope the safety net is made up from things like our our friend groups our support network Maybe if we have a therapist or a coach or it's also made up from our increased Emotional resilience that that muscle that we've been practicing and building to know that even if the worst happens I've got my own back So I think it's, I wasn't going to, but I think it is worth sharing.
So I, we separated and we divorced and they remained in a relationship for about a year and then that did come to an end, which I was, I definitely felt some relief, but that was really more around the, the dynamic with the kids rather than with her and him. And then we actively spent the next couple of years co parenting.
And like I say, we'd had a good friendship, you know, we'd, we'd, we were very close, obviously, whilst we were married, regardless of the things, and she did some work, and obviously I'd gone down a very different path, and done a lot of work on myself, and eventually we did come to a point where we said, well, why don't we just go on a date, you know, let's just see what happens, and so that's exactly what we did, and then, um, We spent the next sort of three months just sort of secretly, if you like, spending a bit more time together after the kids have gone to bed and, um, just trying to understand, you know, if there was something there, you know, if, if now with this sort of like more refreshed, more.
I don't want to say more adults, but it also was kind of more adults on reflection, you know, in terms of like, there's like different versions of us coming back together to see if there was something that could, that could not really be reignited, but to be ignited almost like for the first time, but second time around, if that makes sense and really constantly checking in with each other in terms of why we were doing it, like, not just because the kids, not because of money, not because of finances, not because any of those things really just like The core reasons.
And we are now two years into that. So that the work can be done. And I honestly 100 percent had healed and moved on and never believed that we would be in a relationship ever again. Nor did I even initially desire it particularly. I mean, I still cared about her a lot. But to get to a place where we were then in a position where this opportunity sort of arose, we took that gamble, we approached it from a very different perspective and it's a very different relationship, you know, I suppose, like a, like a marriage 2.
0, although we're not married, but, um, so the work, the work can, can be done. And it really is about the quality of thinking that we have about any given situation. And we can choose to, to think what we want. So just choose something that feels better. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, what comes to mind just when you say that to choosing, choosing something that feels better.
Um, this is kind of a side tangent, but, um, you know, for, for many folks, as they start co parenting, and they have time where they don't have their kids. Um, that can be a, like, super lonely, sad time, especially at first, and I remember going through that phase and seeing all the kids pictures around the house and just, like, looking at them and just feeling sad and just feeling sad, and I can't remember the exact moment, but I just decided every time I looked at their picture when they weren't here, I was just going to think, I love them so much.
I love them so much. And it has turned into this habit, this like wonderful habit. So they transition on Wednesday nights. To their dads and I almost instantly start going around the house as I'm tidying up or whatever and I'm seeing their picture and I'm seeing their laundry on the floor and their dirty dishes everywhere and I'm like, gosh, I love my kids so much.
I love my kids so much. Like, and it just, it feels so good. Like you're saying this whole thing, right? Is about choosing, choosing how we want to feel Like that, that we get to make this choice. Um, I think, I think another, just as you, as you're talking there, cause I can think of a similar, I'll be, I'll be as quick as I can, but when the kids were, when the relationship was still going on between the affair partner and my wife, obviously he was becoming more integrated with, with the children.
And sometimes the kids would come here and be like, Oh, he's, you know, taking us for ice cream and done this. And that was, there was some deep, deep breathing, deep breathing. But actually when I realized that I was, I was out of my control anyway, you know, and I could have got very defensive. I could have tried to be very competitive and tried to, you know, sort of one up and all that.
But I ended up finding this sort of, I suppose, like I thought it was actually before, before I'd gone down my own coaching journey, this was just something I'd sort of come across myself. I was like, well, I did recognize that. That, as a human being, when we experience love, the only person that actually experiences it is you.
You know, you know, you can love like crazy, and the other person doesn't really feel what it is that you're feeling. You're the only person feeling it. So, I was thinking about it from my kid's perspective. And it's like, well, if they're feeling joy and love, from anybody, from anything, and they get to feel that feeling, why should I be so selfish to think that that only can come from me?
I thought, no, it's just ridiculous, you know. They're getting something, because I could really become resentful of that. And then I would maybe start bad mouthing him, or saying things, or, you know, and I didn't, but that's the path I could have gone down. And then they become the pawns between us all, which just creates a bigger divide.
And again, so It sounds like I'm overusing the statement, but that quality of thinking about any given situation is really where you have your power to change. And I'm not saying that that thought was an easy one to plug in and go with right from the word go, but it didn't take long, you know, because I, I believed it.
I believe that my kids were feeling love and pleasure when they were receiving gifts or having a nice day out, you know, and I chose to focus on that. And my God, my, my kids are so important to me. And yeah, why would, why would I want to withhold that from them just to make me feel better? Not for me. And it doesn't, it doesn't end up.
having us feel better anyway. No, he doesn't. But I think, I think that's another, that's a great another square that most people land on, on their chutes and ladders game, right? Which is, how do I react when the kids are talking about My ex's new partner, right? And I think you illustrated so nicely, like, it wasn't necessarily your first thought, like, that's not the first thought.
It might not be the, you know, the first thought for weeks or months at a time. Right? Um, but I also remember coming to that thought of if there's another. Human who wants well for them and loves them and they get to love isn't that beneficial to them? Don't I want more caring adults in their life that love them, right?
And the other thought that came to my mind, which really changed how I talked about my ex and his new partner to my kids was that it's really important to me that they feel like they can talk to me about anything. And so I want to, I want to bring up what they're doing at dad's house and how are things going and, you know, is so and so doing this project or that, you know, so, so that they feel like, oh, we can talk about dad and his girlfriend here.
That's fine. Like mom doesn't mind. Right? Because I want them to feel like I am the safest person for them to bring anything to. Right? And so, yeah. That was part, not, not in a probie, sort of like, tell me what's going on over at the other house, right? Not in that kind of way at all, but in a, you know, you guys have one life, you have one childhood, and you get to bring, when you, when you step inside this door, you get to bring it all with you.
It's all welcome here. Yeah, right. 100%, 100%. Yeah. Oh, Luke. Okay, clearly we could talk for a few hours and go down all sorts of paths. Um, we didn't even really talk about reconciliation, which I wanted to talk about more. Um, or, uh. Just more about co parenting, which I think is is such an important topic. So maybe we'll have to have you back on And we can like dive into a whole nother round of things But I am I'm so glad my audience got to meet you If you all are interested in hearing more from Luke, I again highly recommend his podcast after the affair And also, I mean, he's on Facebook and Instagram and LinkedIn, all those places too.
And I'll put his contact info in our show notes so that you can connect with them. Um, any, any last nugget of wisdom, Luke, if, if someone. Yeah, you are. I think we didn't, we didn't touch enough. Like you say, I'm obviously, we have spoken about co parenting of course, but I'm thinking focus on yourself first, be consistent and.
Communicate, particularly with your children, and obviously as best you can, depending on your individual circumstances, with your co parent. Probably the most impactful thing that me and my co parent did with our kids was have a consistent routine for them. So the kids always knew where they stood. They weren't this thing that was being, there was no uncertainty.
Yes, okay, they didn't see Daddy as much, but they knew when they saw him. And I always did. Adhere to that. In fact, we, despite the fact that all the changing circumstances, we still basically run the same routine now because I don't live at the family home. We still basically have the same routine we had that we, you know, when we, when we first separated and that consistency has played a huge part in making the kids feel safe.
Because obviously they did feel, they do feel things, they do sense things, and of course they all experience something slightly different, and we can't control that, but like you were saying, it's about being supportive, open, knowing that they feel safe, and communicating that, so, and if you focus on yourself first, then you will be the best version of yourself, and then you will Everything else just follows quite naturally.
Yeah, so good. That's gold. That's gold. Thank you so much, Luke I really appreciate you coming on and and sharing with all of us. All right, y'all That's what we have for you this week, and I will see you next time. Bye now
Divorced dad and Relationship and Infidelity Coach, Luke Shillings, is on this week to talk about all things after-the-affair.
Luke generously shares his personal experience and the helpful strategies he's identified as he's helped so many people navigate this unwanted experience.
We talk about the 5 stages most people go through while healing from infidelity (independent of whether you stay in your relationship or not).
We also discuss how to co-parent during this healing time and Luke shares his personal story.
No two people have the same story of navigating infidelity. Still, we can all look for where we have agency and control so that we can feel more empowered navigating this new life.
Enjoy!
// CONNECT WITH LUKE
Website: www.lifecoachluke.com
Instagram: www.instagram.com/mylifecoachluke
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mylifecoachluke
Podcast: 'After the Affair' with Luke Shillings
// CONNECT WITH MEG
To learn more about Meg's 1-on-1 coaching practice for divorced parents, especially those looking for less stress around co-parenting, visit https://meggluckman.com/
