125: Teens & Divorce with Kristin Little
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Kristin Little v2(finished) You mentioned a book to put in your show notes btwMeg: [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast. I'm your host, Meg Gluckman. I am a divorce and co-parenting coach, today we're gonna talk about teens and divorce and parenting teens through divorce. I've got a guest with me. Kristin Little. She is a therapist, a child specialist, and a writer.
She co-wrote the co-parenting handbook with my mentor, Karen Bonnell. It's probably the book that I most often give out to my clients. Thanks for being here, Kristen.
kristin: Thanks for asking me. I really like talking about this. Teens especially.
Meg: Yeah, it's a good topic and it's a juicy one. So often we're talking about how to support under five age group as we're navigating divorce. And then the other big age group are our teens. I feel like those are where the majority of my conversations tend to fall when we're talking about parenting.
So Kristen lives over in Seattle. Tell folks a little [00:01:00] bit about what the child specialist role is and how you work with parents that are navigating divorce.
kristin: I was a therapist in private practice and going through my own, divorce, I learned about this child specialist role and there wasn't really a lot of people doing it in the area.
Essentially the child specialist, originated in the collaborative divorce community. It's this parenting family coach around. Parents and children, whereas the other coach deals with the adult issues and helps adults navigate the divorce process. I started doing this in 2009 and had to develop my approach, what I really like about it is a way to help parents support their children.
Children are gonna have their own needs questions and experiences, instead of just both parents talking about what they think, it's a way to bring the child's voice in appropriately.
Speaker 2: It's not having, the children in the [00:02:00] divorce process, but it's just giving 'em a chance to, have their say , what's helping, what's hurting what questions they have, and then bringing that back to parents so they can, work with that information.
I always stick to the collaborative principles of , avoiding , litigation, not participating in litigation. This is. Seen as a safe way for parents to discuss these important issues find, alignment and mutual goals and, , focus on the children's needs.
Other people may do it differently, but, this is, how I do it and have been doing it for quite a while.
Speaker: You said that it wasn't a long-term engagement, so can you describe what it actually looks like how often are you meeting with the parents versus how often are you talking to the kids how does that work?
Speaker 2: This is just my way and the way that I feel fits my focus keeping those kids out of the, divorce process. I call it the, classic 1, 2, 3. So I meet [00:03:00] with parents. I just give them this overview about what co-parenting means, I had, gone through this divorce and had a really young child I had all these ideas about how I was gonna parent.
When divorce hit, I'm like, what do I do with this? What do I do? I really wanted somebody to tell me what to do rather than what to be afraid of. That's my, opportunity to describe to them what the, goal is, what the focus is and see if that resonates with them.
It gives me a chance to assess how these parents take that information from their children. if kids are gonna share information, , I wanna make sure they're able to hear it in a. Way that's sensitive and respectful, so, meet with the parents and then we make an appointment.
if they're in agreement to meet with their children, I meet with children , everybody's always surprised about this. I meet with 'em once and I meet them individually because. I don't wanna convey that it's this ongoing thing. They don't have a problem. Their parents are getting divorced. So I just meet with them once . I Weave [00:04:00] around with what I know and what the parents have shared with me.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: What's going on for them. And then with the children's permission, share that information with their, parents, , from a neutral point.
I use their voice, but I'm, this neutral presenter , . So that parents can begin talking about it. I, offer suggestions or, validate or normalize things that kids are going through that are very normal. But I help to hopefully point them in a direction what they can do.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: , I wanna respect their, feelings about sharing things with their parents. I'm also picking up if they have some worries around that, but if a kid doesn't wanna share something, I'm gonna abide by that. I can wiggle in there a little bit about maybe if it's really important how to present that to a parent in a way that maybe they're okay with.
Or I can say, would you be okay if I said this to your parents? So the child knows. The parents kind of know, what would help them. And then we're done in a way. Here you go. And then you move on with the, coach that you have.
As you [00:05:00] discuss these things, i'm always available , and there if they need me, but I don't want to, , have kids enter into this process. It's really the parents task. But sometimes, people do, and I'm flexible too, if it's appropriate, Another change down the road, let's say they move or something like that, and they wanna call me back in we'll just be really clear about what we're gathering.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: maybe a parent. Wants a little bit extra support in some sort of intervention they're doing with their kids or, an issue.
with both parents' approval, you know, this is always done in a way that's both parents are fully in control of mm-hmm. And work with them a little bit. . I try to keep it really light. I don't know if you know this about divorce, but it's really expensive. And emotionally expensive.
I know there's so many players and I just wanna do the part that is really, gonna be effective and not muck up their schedules and their life so I try to keep it efficient.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: We know that there's a place for somebody to [00:06:00] come in with clear eyes and see the situation and bring your expertise and knowledge. Sometimes those things can really create a big shift. I'm curious about what you hear as their top issues or, biggest concerns as they're navigating divorce?
Speaker 2: The thing that makes teens different from younger children is that. Younger children are all about the family. They're still very much, this is their world. And teens have had some time to, explore their own world and put time and effort into , their friends activities and school, and they're kind of moving out into the world.
, What you can see sometimes is , kids can really be frustrated and angry that parents are doing this when, , it's their time to make all the changes. They want that stability and think their parents are just there for them.
It's like you're supposed to stay there and be boring and like, I'm supposed to all exciting [00:07:00] stuff
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker 2: , I had one kid say Oh my God, my parents are gonna wanna spend all this time with me now. they're getting divorced, you know, I wanna do my thing.
it's really important to validate that's not selfishness. This kid did love his parents, but it was the appropriate focus on what's important to me. Sometimes Kids revert back and be consumed with what's going on with the adults, because maybe the stability it's really threatening.
With teens, instead of clinging teens will get into the information. They'll wanna know what's going on because. They're, , new cognitive abilities and they have their own opinions, so they can get really into the adult stuff.
It feels kind of good. It's almost like, I'm a bigger person. I know I've got my own mind and I can have opinion about this. Sometimes I can see that as well. I have a sigh of relief when kids are a little bit more dismissive. 'Cause they can compartmentalize a bit more.
Speaker: Yeah. So I want to hear more about the teens, like digging into the [00:08:00] information because it's really easy to have the conversation with parents of littles that these topics, whether it's who's paying child support what dating app did you find on your spouse's phone?
Or text from somebody else, It's kind of easy to say that's above their pay grade. But we do then have these teens that are saying, I can totally understand this.
Tell me what happened. Tell me why, who's at fault here? Why is this happening? they're wanting it and making the case that they can understand it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And our job as parents is to protect kids. Sometimes they'll say they want things and we can respect their opinion, but we can see the potential harm down the road.
I encourage parents not to just do what a kid is, asking there are normal developmental desires that a child has, a teen has, to have their own [00:09:00] opinion, to be independent.
And, still have a close relationship with parents but I see giving them too much information as manipulation a lot of times it's unintentional, but when you're really hurting it feels good to have your child not mad at you because of all these changes, , to see you as a good guy. You can run into that and it might feel good in the moment but it is really important You, keep them out of it. We call this kind of also parentification. They're invested in their world and they wanna know what's gonna impact it and what's gonna change.
So the key is to see the motivation underneath it is healthy, but make that really good parenting decision. Kids know when you're kind of blowing 'em off I think it's good to just be transparent. I know that I am not answering exactly what you want, and I'll tell you why.
So being really protective about telling them why and telling them why in a way that benefits [00:10:00] them, they still may not like it. But you are showing that you're caring for them, not just not telling 'em information. , I've had teen and tween girls, especially climbing down the stairs and listening around corners because.
how relationships work is so intriguing. And they do that with their friends. But they can make such great assumptions , that can hurt them.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Love this.
Speaker 2: Here's an example. In junior high, or , high school, , you got two girls who are yelling at each other, you might think that the one who's yelling and , the one's backed against the locker, , the one who's yelling is the one who is being a meeting and the one who's kind of shrinking into the locker is the victim.
You might assume, to defend the one who's backing into the locker. But what you don't know is perhaps that the one who's yelling this is the first time she stood up or just really said, no, I don't like this.
And she's been hurt, what can happen is that the way it appears is not always accurate. What we learn as we [00:11:00] grow is, we know the rules, but we learn where the rules don't always apply.
That's wisdom. need time and experience for wisdom. It's not intellectual. It's time and experience. Parents need to come together and create some sort of agreed upon, narrative for what's happening so they can answer these questions.
having that overarching narrative of what's happening what will happen, what are we capable of? Who are we is essential. you're gonna. Explain it to them, but you're gonna continue building with that scaffold throughout their life.
I still use it in my family. We built on it over time and it's the same frame. And that's why I think a lot of the work with parents is important to, create some common language.
Speaker: I can see teens craving an explanation.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: They want to know what created this, what caused this? I am [00:12:00] curious about how often when you're talking to the teens, they knew something was gonna come down. They're not totally shocked by this outcome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Because of conflict.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: , I'm curious, how often , does it seem like this is out of the blue to them and how often are they like, yeah, , things have been happening for a while.
Speaker 2: Well, I think , your sentiment that, kids, really wanna know , what happened, and I think you're right. If you've got all this change going on in your family, a kid deserves to know why.
Mm-hmm. I mean, that's respectful. , It just has to be a why that has some accuracy to it. Not the full accuracy, but some accuracy. If you say, we just fight all the time and you guys have fought behind closed doors, , they never caught wind of it, then that's not gonna, feel true to them.
They're gonna still keep searching. You're giving them the why so that they can kind of put it to rest, even if they don't like it. Mm-hmm.
But yeah, they deserve something. [00:13:00] Crafting that message. When kids really know then maybe that has gotten messy.
They have been seeing parents fighting or they've been seeing some dynamics unequal or unfair that they've been grappling with too. And as sad as it is, when kids are really surprised, I'm a little bit like, whew. Because there might not be as much to unpack.
Speaker 3: But
Speaker 2: They're gonna need a lot more help in terms of understanding. Why would you do this when, , everything seemed fine to me you don't wanna tell kids like that. It's, better for all of us. 'cause the kids are like, not for me. So you wanna think about it from that point of view.
When kids have seen it, it's, taking responsibility and saying. This is something that we feel wasn't okay, and we're really sorry this is what we are, doing because we think, that it's not okay to have these fights in front of you.
And when it's out of the blue, it's being able to say, , , this is why. And maybe,, a, general why, but really having a lot of respect for the fact [00:14:00] that , it might be hard for them because, it had been working well for them.
And that they understand that, but to trust them that it wasn't working on another level. when people say, depending on the age, but also connecting it to a value sometimes people really want different things and they try hard to agree on and they don't.
instead of trying to. Keep fighting. Sometimes it's important to allow people to be themselves and do what they need. it's sometimes really sad, being able to do that. explanations so kids can understand but not be encouraged to join.
Speaker: I appreciate you giving these examples because sometimes when we're thinking about how to tell the kids, there's just no sense of what is the right thing to say every parent wants to come to that conversation.
And create the least harm possible. They want their kids to navigate this big change with the least negative [00:15:00] feelings
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Right. And I think what you're saying around the story that we tell, making sure we don't throw the other parent under the bus.
Part of that is we have to be okay with the kids having some big negative feelings. There's a psychologist, Lisa Damour, that I love She has a couple different books, tangled and, the emotional Lives of Teenagers. she talks about. Mental health being when the size of our emotions matches what's going on in our lives.
So if we have a huge reaction to something very small in our lives, That might not be the best mental health, balance But when something huge is happening in their lives, for our kids, it makes sense that they have some big emotions with it.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: And that it's not just [00:16:00] that they have one day of big emotions, but that it's
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: It's a process. our willingness to. Be there with them as they're having these emotions and it's super hard. when they're having emotions at us.
Speaker 2: This is where you pull up those parenting bands even though you're really struggling, this is the moment that you can stand and be the parent they need. Instead of getting overwhelmed by your own feelings knowing what to do helps you feel less overwhelmed.
That validation of their experience is vital. If kids are seeing and feeling tension and say, there's something going on, and we say, no, no, everything's fine. We are telling our children not to trust their own experience that's what kids need we are trying to help them.
Understand, their experience and build that identity and sense of confidence in the world. When you take away your kids' feelings you're harming that part of them. Instead of seeing the kids' feelings as , they're gonna hate [00:17:00] me rather than my children know how to feel something and express it, I can give them support and validate their behavior we do that all the time, the rolling of the eyes, feels dismissive, but I can tell that you have an opinion about this and it's not mine.
Hey, that? Can you try another way? actually do that with my son and he never rolled his eyes at me you gotta tell your feelings are okay. I wanna hear them. help me help you.
Letting children have those messy feelings and just having those good boundaries. Your emotions and children's emotions and allowing them I always tell kids, when I'm working with them, adults are 100% responsible for their own emotions.
They have lots of people they can talk to. They got lots of skills and they're there to teach you. support you, not the other way around. That doesn't mean children can't be caring to their parents, but it means we know how to do this and it's not your job.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: that's what [00:18:00] we need to do. When we don't do it, we own it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Hey, I remember one time I was all worried 'cause I was a horrible student. And like junior high and early high school a really bad, and so where it really makes me anxious.
my son had some struggles I did, but not the same ones. I was hovering, like, have you done your planner, He looks at me and I took a moment came back in a little while and I go, you know. I think that was my anxiety.
I think that was how I felt. I said, I don't think that was yours and I'm sorry. You don't deserve that much anxiety. You're actually doing pretty well that kind of repair is so important. Kids need to watch us do that so they know they can sometimes ask us like, Hey, mom, you seem a bit, you know that I'm okay.
Mistakes are important.
Just own them.
Speaker: Yeah. And I appreciate that. I think sometimes we put so much weight on exactly how we're gonna phrase something.
[00:19:00] to our kids or exactly like how we're gonna tell 'em that we're gonna get divorced and recognizing like, we're gonna mess up.
We're not gonna do any of this perfectly. We're gonna lose our temper sometimes
Speaker 3: yeah.
Speaker: And the repair is possible, right? Like we're modeling it for them.
They can do this too. When they make a mistake, we repair. It's just so huge.
Right. I mean, helping them navigate this process. We are showing them this is how you do a hard thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker: Right. This is how you do something that has a whole lot of big emotions with it. And that isn't over in an instant, right? This isn't like, oh, I'm gonna go run this race and it's gonna be a hard race, then I'll be done.
Speaker 2: I think with teenagers when you have a younger kid, they see you as bigger than life. for a teenager, it is really stepping back and they are starting to see you as more of a human being. And that includes negative stuff,
Speaker 3: mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Development. It's important for them to see you not as bigger than life. If you are trying to project this, [00:20:00] I know everything.
I'm gonna take care of everything. When they're teenagers, bit of confidence and safety. Great. But you know that actually. Doesn't work really well because they're gonna push away and they do want some independence they can see that they can go and get that they can come back and that they're not dealing with this perfect all-knowing parent. They're dealing with a parent who's really accessible and is gonna be able to talk to them about mistakes makes their own mistakes and that they're given some space.
I like to think of it as this is where I always use soccer 'cause I love soccer. instead of being, you know, when they're really little and, almost on the field with 'em. this is more like you are sitting back and supporting the player.
And you are there for feedback when they run off the field and it's like, how'd I do? And you're there for support. But you're not in the field with them. You're kind of back and letting them do what they need to do. It's being accessible, but stepping back a bit so that kids have this safe, space to do some things, [00:21:00] make some mistakes, but that you are right there. if they need help, they know where you are and can find you on the sidelines, encourage them to try some things the commitment is that you come to me when you feel over your head or need feedback. It's not, you do everything the way that I want you to This is your safe space. So when you go out in the world, you're gonna have some experience of playing around the edges. Because that's what helps develop independence.
Speaker: Let's talk for a minute about when things get really hard.
I feel like these terms are floating around and more and more people are using them without really knowing. What they mean. I hear parental alienation, I hear, resist and refuse. Can you tell us a little bit about what those mean? What they look like?
Speaker 2: Parental alienation there's some controversy around it It's when a child is influenced by one parent to ally [00:22:00] with them and be against the other parent disrupting that relationship a kid doesn't want to be with one parent.
That is so scary, to have a divorce and have this change. to think that you're gonna lose your children, like, oh my gosh. You're already having a loss because, you used to see your children a hundred percent of the time.
Now , you're not seeing them. Some of the time. And that's a huge loss in grief, in transition. So, I do get parents that come in sometimes that are really worried about what children may be saying. Maybe they're feeling like the children are being told information that's inappropriate
mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Of course, I think that is something to always clean up, if you notice that you have done something like that, you own it. the way that you feel about the other parent and about the divorce is not the way a child feels.
you get to live in your own place and you don't have to have this interaction. But a child literally goes and lives in those two worlds. They have to adapt or lose a [00:23:00] parent, which is. A tragedy, kids are gonna have preferences, like, somebody's meatloaf better than the other, that's always probably been true, but now you're living in two different homes and it can feel really weighty. helping children to understand that there's preferences, it's okay.
But when a parent's really worried oftentimes I get them, focusing on what is that parent saying and what are they doing wrong? If I see it, I think it's, good to call out if you're a parent and hear information you can ask and say, Hey, Billy said da da da my concern is that sounds like some adult information, maybe we should talk about it, we just both really need to be careful about that.
assuming good intent and not assuming you know, everything. It's good to call it out. But if you can't influence the other parent with a simple request and bringing their attention to it, you probably don't have a lot of influence.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: So, bringing in other people too maybe they can point it out. The other part that you have more control over is how you deal with those disclosures or [00:24:00] questions.
The number one thing is when a kid comes with some sort of question like, Hey mom, did you get dad outta the house?
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: It's almost, they're stand in front of your ex, your kid's coming to you with this question there's a lot of tension and worry and feelings around it.
Attend to the kid first.
Speaker 3: Like,
Speaker 2: Is that what you're thinking? Lean into it a little bit. Be curious without being pokey, that's a really hard question. How are you feeling to come into that question?
are you been worried about that for a while? it's an okay question and I'm gonna tend to you first.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And then, get to the question underneath the question, what is it that you're worried about? You could say, no, that's not how it happened.
But I can tell that was a hard question. You can give them the information, but instead of trying to fill in your side. focus on sharing your values and your hopes for them. So it could be like. I know that divorce was really tough We did have some arguments [00:25:00] I actually care about your mom or your dad because I want them to be okay I'm glad you came to me with that question because I don't want you to worry about that always lead them into what is true for you in, a way that helps to reassure them. one time I had changed jobs, and was setting up my own solo private practice? And my son was were, are we gonna be okay?
And his dad had also changed jobs a while before. The message was, I've been on my own for a long time before I met your dad. I'm always, okay, I got it. And when his dad, you know, had, you know, changing jobs, like, you know what, we're all together.
You know, we have two different homes, but I care about your dad. I would help however , and I know he would help me as well. We still care about each other. we're committed to making sure that family's okay.
So you can share your own hopes, values, and the way you think by the way you present yourself.
You aren't interested in conflict [00:26:00] and that means a lot. focus on what you have control over rather than trying to change the other parent. with teens it's really important 'cause they are trying to figure out their world.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: And they do wanna know about fairness and they're still in those beginning stages of morality You focus on the things that are important to you and we're gonna be here to support you.
Speaker: That's so beautiful. Yes. This has been so good, Kristen. There's so many nuggets. I took so many notes. I'm like, oh, that's a great way of phrasing it.
Speaker 2: there's always so much more, it's such a rich area. And that's why this work never gets old because
Speaker: Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's so much more, and a lot of it feels really positive
Speaker: yeah,
Speaker 2: Parents really resonating with this, and that's the joy in the work.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But yeah, there's always more,
Speaker: Any resources that you wanna share with folks? Or a last wish for those parents that have teens and are going through their divorce?
Speaker 2: I think some of the resources it's [00:27:00] really cheap to find those written resources, on divorce co-parenting or, blended families, Karen Bonnells, so prolific, she has books on, All of those. Being able to read some of those books and understand, the people who have gone before you don't have to remake the wheel.
I really love the book that we wrote but there's other books out there too, it's just really cheap information. Karen also has the stepfamily handbook. It's so good to read those books.
And also, there's some good books, about, team development or, what everybody gets worried about like, executive function Dan Siegel wrote a book for teens, and I cannot remember the name.
I know the book is Red,
Speaker: the red book everybody look for,
Speaker 2: It's been for teen development, but it's kind of thick for a teen to read. I think things like that are really good for, adults, parents to read so they can help their kid understand what's normal.
They can understand what's normal and why things are happening. There's, smart but scattered. There's the teen version for that. It really helps break it down a lot of these [00:28:00] academics and, behavior can get heightened when you're a single parent.
you wanna manage your anxiety and help support kids
Speaker: mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: they're also really struggling to go, am I capable in this world? I like those sorts of things.
Speaker: I will find Dan Siegel's book and put those other books in our show notes so it's easy for everybody
Speaker 2: And I wrote another book too,
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's for people in the beginning stages of a divorce they didn't anticipate
Speaker: mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Want, and, you know, really found that there are different types of things and issues and dynamics and divorce that are tough and that's just one of them.
I wrote a book, no More Us and it's, it gets a little bit older. I think, the reason why I wrote it is 'cause a lot of people thought that because I was involved in collaborative divorce, I have a good relationship and I'm lucky enough, and I say lucky 'cause it's not always just skill, it's luck.
To have a good co-parenting relationship the divorce was very amicable and it wasn't. I wanted to share some of the messier parts that people might not see, but that are perfectly [00:29:00] normal and understandable and how to navigate those. Yeah. So it's really about somebody who's, feels that they've been left and and so I always wanna throw that one out there because it's kind of a niche issue
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Thank you Kristen. Where can people learn more about. Your practice,
Speaker 2: Kristen little counseling.com. And so they can read all about and, me the way I work in therapy, but also the way that I work in divorce. And, they can reach out and send a query if they have questions about what I do or resources that, I can point them in the right direction.
Speaker: thank you all for listening we will see you on the next episode. Bye now.
In this episode, Meg Gluckman sits down with therapist, child specialist, and author Kristin Little to explore how to support teenagers through their parents' divorce. Kristin shares her unique approach as a child specialist in the Collaborative divorce process, offering practical guidance on communication, boundaries, and helping teens navigate this major life transition.
Kristin Little is a therapist, child specialist, and writer based in Seattle. She co-authored The Co-Parenting Handbook with Karen Bonnell and has been working as a child specialist in collaborative divorce since 2009. She also wrote No More Us, a book for people navigating the early stages of an unwanted divorce.
Website: KristinLittleCounseling.com
Highlights:
The child specialist role – How Kristin brings children's voices into the collaborative divorce process through her "Classic 1-2-3" approach: meeting with parents, then children individually, then sharing feedback
How teens differ from younger children – Teens have already built their own world and may feel frustrated that parents are disrupting their stability; they want independence while also craving explanations
The information dilemma – Why parents should protect teens from adult information even when they insist they can handle it, and how to be transparent about why you're not sharing everything
Creating a shared narrative – The importance of parents crafting an agreed-upon explanation that validates children's experience without encouraging them to take sides
Supporting big emotions and repair – Validating teens' feelings as appropriate responses to major change, and the power of owning mistakes rather than trying to be perfect
Books Mentioned:
The Co-Parenting Handbook by Karen Bonnell and Kristin Little
The Stepfamily Handbook by Karen Bonnell
No More Us by Kristin Little (for those navigating an unwanted divorce)
Untangled and The Emotional Lives of Teenagers by Lisa Damour
Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain by Dan Siegel (the "red book" for teen development)
Smart but Scattered Teens by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare
